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Democrats argue witnesses would have been difficult to get — and wouldn’t have mattered

According to Herrera Beutler, who was also one of just 10 House Republicans to vote to impeach Trump for a second time last month, Trump spoke to House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) on January 6 as the Capitol building was under attack by a pro-Trump mob.

“Well, Kevin, I guess these people are more upset about the election than you are,” Trump reportedly told McCarthy as rioters stormed the Capitol.

Herrera Beutler had previously recounted that conversation to a local news outlet, the Longview Daily News, in January after her impeachment vote, but it garnered new attention when CNN reported additional details Friday.

“You have to look at what [Trump] did during the insurrection to confirm where his mind was at,” Herrera Beutler told CNN Friday. “That line right there demonstrates to me that either he didn’t care, which is impeachable, because you cannot allow an attack on your soil, or he wanted it to happen and was OK with it, which makes me so angry.”

As compelling as Herrera Beutler’s testimony might have been, though — she called Trump’s comments “chilling” — Democrats argued Sunday that it wouldn’t have made any difference to the outcome of the trial, and it wouldn’t have been worth the delay to other Senate business.

“We could have had a thousand witnesses, but that could not have overcome the kinds of silly arguments that people like McConnell and Capito were hanging their hats on,” Raskin told NBC’s Chuck Todd on Meet the Press Sunday.

EXCLUSIVE: @RepRaskin explains why Democrats chose not to hear from witnesses.

Raskin: “We could have had a thousand witnesses but that could not have overcome the kinds of silly arguments that people like McConnell and Caputo were hanging their hats on.” pic.twitter.com/tkStrGVxUV

— Meet the Press (@MeetThePress) February 14, 2021

Plaskett took a similar line with Tapper. “We didn’t need more witnesses, we needed more senators with spines,” she said Sunday.

Rep. Joe Neguse (D-CO), one of the impeachment managers, also told Margaret Brennan on CBS’s Face the Nation Sunday that “witnesses that were not friendly to the prosecution were not going to comply voluntarily, which meant that we were going to be litigating subpoenas for months and potentially years.”

Why didn’t House impeachment managers call for witnesses - like @GOPLeader Kevin McCarthy, who spoke with former President Trump on Jan 6? #Impeachment Manager @RepJoeNeguse explains –> pic.twitter.com/yvBa9I03c2

— Face The Nation (@FaceTheNation) February 14, 2021

As both Neguse and Plaskett pointed out, Democrats are still engaged in a court battle to compel former White House counsel Don McGahn’s testimony related to Trump’s first impeachment trial.

This all raises the question of why Raskin proposed deposing Herrera Beutler if getting her testimony might have been difficult and if it was seen as having little influence on the outcome.

For one, Herrera Beutler was reportedly prepared to testify if subpoenaed. Other potential candidates for a deposition — such as McCarthy himself, or Alabama Sen. Tommy Tuberville, who spoke to Trump on the phone during the insurrection — may have been less willing, but Neguse said Sunday that managers wanted to hear from just “one witness, not multiple witnesses.”

Why a deposition seen as futile was proposed appears more complicated.

Pressure from Democratic Senate colleagues may have played a role in the House managers’ decision Saturday. According to a Politico report, Delaware Sen. Chris Coons cautioned his House colleagues that pursuing witness testimony would mean losing Republican, and possibly some Democrat, votes to convict Trump.

“The jury is ready to vote,” Coons reportedly said. “People want to get home for Valentine‘s Day.”

The managers also claimed Sunday that they were satisfied with having Herrera Beutler’s words read into the record, because any deposition taken would have been similar to what the Washington representative had already said in previous statements.

“It became very clear to us the president’s counsel was willing to stipulate to allow that statement to come into evidence and be considered by the Senate,” Neguse said on CBS. “And that was an important stipulation.”

As Vox’s Andrew Prokop pointed out Saturday, there was little suspense about whether testimony could affect the final vote in the Senate. This made the argument for calling witnesses more about attempting to shed further light on Trump’s state of mind — and chipping away at his support — than anything else.

According to Prokop:

The outcome of the trial wasn’t in serious question, since Democrats never got anywhere near the 17 Republican Senate votes they’d need to convict Trump. (For instance, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell announced he would vote to acquit Trump Saturday morning, ending rumors to the contrary.)

This means the witness question would mainly be about attempting to further unearth facts about what happened, or aimed at hurting Trump’s political support (rather than having a real chance of convicting him). But in the end, political leaders in both parties preferred the trial to end now, rather than dragging it out. Democrats hope to return to a focus on President Biden’s agenda, and Republicans want the focus off Trump’s ugly actions.

As Neguse said Sunday: “I think it’s pretty clear, and lead manager Raskin touched on this, whether it was five more witnesses or 5,000 witnesses … it would not have made a difference to those senators.”

All told, 57 senators — 10 shy of the two-thirds majority needed to convict Trump — voted to find him guilty Saturday. Seven Republicans joined every Democrat in voting to convict Trump of inciting insurrection. Despite that verdict, which was widely, and accurately, seen as predetermined along largely partisan lines, House impeachment managers argued Sunday that their evidence, including Herrera Beutler’s statement, speaks for itself.

“We had sufficient evidence to prove that the president did what we said he did, which was incite an insurrection to overthrow our government,” Plaskett said Sunday. “I think that all Americans, when we rested our case, believed that we had proved our case.”

On the pro-Trump side stands Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC). Graham was one of Trump’s most loyal supporters during his time in office, but that momentarily changed following the January 6 insurrection when Graham gave a speech distancing himself from Trump.

“Count me out. Enough is enough.” Graham said.

Graham quickly had second thoughts about this stance, traveling with Trump during his last trip as president and shamelessly defending Trump on TV.

Lindsey Graham is on Fox News trying to blame Nancy Pelosi for the Capitol riot pic.twitter.com/vlOyPhPUxp

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) January 21, 2021

If Graham’s Sunday morning appearance on Fox News Sunday is an indication, his loyalty to the former president is stronger than ever.

“Donald Trump is the most vibrant member of the Republican Party,” Graham said, distancing himself from former UN ambassador Nikki Haley’s comments about Trump not having a future in the GOP. “The Trump movement is alive and well … all I can say is that the most potent force in the Republican Party is President Trump.”

Those comments came at the end of an interview that began with Graham suggesting Republicans will go as far as to retaliate for Trump’s second impeachment by impeaching Vice President Kamala Harris if they take back the House next year.

Lindsey Graham suggests Kamala Harris will be impeached if Republicans take back the House next year pic.twitter.com/J68Or4k1la

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) February 14, 2021

Both Cassidy and Graham were comfortably reelected for fresh six-year terms last November, but each lawmaker is using his mandate differently at a moment when principles and politics are at tension in the GOP.

Cassidy is using his job security to distance himself from a president he views as violating his oath of office, but Graham seems to be calculating that Trumpism represents the Republican Party’s best bet to retake one or both chambers of Congress next year.

That was apparent toward the end of Graham’s latest Fox News interview, when he basically endorsed Lara Trump — Donald Trump’s daughter-in-law — to fill a North Carolina US Senate seat being vacated in 2022 by Sen. Richard Burr, who, also surprisingly, joined Cassidy in the camp of former Trump loyalists who voted to convict Trump.

“North Carolina, the biggest winner, I think, of this whole impeachment trial is Lara Trump,” Graham said. “My dear friend Richard Burr, who I like and have been friends to a long time, just made Lara Trump almost the certain nominee for the Senate seat in North Carolina to replace him if she runs. And I certainly will be behind her, because I think she represents the future of the Republican Party.”

A third Republican — Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan, who has been an outspoken critic of Trump — made a case on CNN’s State of the Union Sunday morning that Cassidy’s stand should represent the future of the party.

“I think the final chapter of Donald Trump and where the Republican Party goes hasn’t been written yet, and I think we’re going to have a real battle for the soul of the Republican Party over the next couple of years,” Hogan said. “Are we gonna be a party that can’t win national elections again, that loses the presidency, the House, and the Senate in a four-year period?”

“We’re going to have a real battle for the soul of the Republican Party.”

Maryland Gov. Larry Hogan tells CNN’s @JakeTapper he thinks the final chapter of Donald Trump and where the Republican Party goes hasn’t been written yet. #CNNSOTU https://t.co/mVKIu6W8KO pic.twitter.com/ibceHLwhaT

— State of the Union (@CNNSotu) February 14, 2021

Hogan is right to point out that the two election cycles following Trump’s 2016 victory over Hillary Clinton saw Republicans losing power in that way, which often served as a rebuke of Trumpism’s broader appeal. But the former president remains very popular with the GOP base — polling conducted just before the second impeachment trial found Trump’s approval rating among Republicans still in the 80s.

So while Cassidy’s stand for democracy is commendable, and Hogan’s optimism notable, it’s an open question whether there’s a place for people like them within a party so complicit in Trump’s authoritarian attempt.

On Sunday, the military deployed armored vehicles in Yangon, Myanmar’s largest city, for the first time since the coup took place on February 1, leading the US embassy there to urge US citizens in Myanmar to “shelter in place.”

The crackdown is a grim throwback to an earlier era in Myanmar’s history. The country, which is also known as Burma, has been under military rule for much of its existence since winning independence from Britain in 1948.

As Kirby points out, Myanmar’s military has a history of using lethal force to quell protests, perhaps most notably during pro-democracy protests in 1988. Already in 2021, at least one protester has been shot and is believed to be in critical condition with “extensive” brain damage.

The country began a slow process of democratizing about a decade ago, as Vox’s Alex Ward has explained at length, but though Suu Kyi — a popular leader who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1991 and until this month held the title of “state counsellor” — was released from house arrest in 2010 and allowed to wield some power, the system was never fully democratic.

Ahead of the military coup, it appeared more democratic reforms could be on the way: Suu Kyi’s party won parliamentary elections last year by a landslide on the promise to push constitutional reforms that would have further pared back the military’s political power.

The military, according to Ward, decried those elections as fraudulent, though there is no evidence to support that claim, and finally moved to seize power on the pretense of a national emergency just before the election results were set to be certified by a new parliament.

As one expert, Northwestern University political science professor Sarah Bouchat, told Ward: “[The military is] potentially using this global opportunity, where other leaders are focused on all of the crises around Covid-19 and economic recession, to seize whatever power they can with impunity.”

The US is imposing new sanctions on Myanmar’s military leaders

Since the coup, Myanmar’s military government has been widely condemned by the international community, including by the US, the United Nations, and international organizations like Human Rights Watch.

“We call on Burmese military leaders to release all government officials and civil society leaders and respect the will of the people of Burma as expressed in democratic elections on November 8,” new US Secretary of State Antony Blinken said in a statement earlier this month. “The United States stands with the people of Burma in their aspirations for democracy, freedom, peace, and development.”

The US has also officially labeled actions by Myanmar’s military a coup d’etat, which State Department officials say will “[trigger] certain restrictions on foreign assistance to the government of Burma” as well as “a broader review of our assistance programs.”

President Joe Biden announced Wednesday that the US will impose new sanctions on military leaders responsible for the coup, including senior general and coup leader Min Aung Hlaing, and freeze about $1 billion in funds currently held in the US.

However, he said, the US will continue to support “health care, civil society groups and other areas that benefit the people of Burma directly.” (In 2016, the US lifted longstanding sanctions on Myanmar in response to the country’s now-undone democratic progress.)

Some Myanmar experts, such as former US ambassador to Myanmar Derek Mitchell, caution that it won’t be easy for the US to meaningfully affect events in Myanmar.

“We don’t have a whole lot of leverage,” Mitchell told the BBC on Saturday. “The key is our allies. That’s a very difficult path, because some of our allies — Japan, India, Korea — have a lot of investment. They will be worried about growing Chinese influence there.”

White House press secretary Jen Psaki also signaled that the possibility of China, which shares a border with Myanmar, taking advantage of changes in US policy was a concern.

“Certainly, we are concerned about China’s absence from the conversation and lack of a vocal role here,” Psaki said this week.

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